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 Post subject: Chopping structure for prize pool variations
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:28 pm 
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PSO Silver
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:10 am
Posts: 67
Hey everyone,


I was wondering what your opinion is on this structure for chopping a final table in a live tournament.

To give context, say this is considered a large tournament in your poker room.
The buy-in is $275+$25. 10,000 starting chips. blinds start at 25, 25. 30 minute blinds. Medium to slow tourney. Lots of room to play at the beginning. 180 player max. Top 18 paid.

Say you get down to the final 9 players (because #10 didn't want to chop as he was 2nd in chips). 2nd in chips get stacked by the chip leader, and now we have an overwhelming chip leader... say he's got 4:1 on the next guy, and the rest of us are pretty even on chips... with a few of us in all-in/fold mode (about 10x sb+bb+antes)
(note.. i don't remember the exact amounts of chips left, but this was a real situation, it's been 10 hours... so I was tired =P)
Does the following chop make sense.
Say the remaining payouts pool for the 9 remaining players is around $45,000.
Does it make sense to say that everyone is guaranteed say 4000, which is around 4th/5th place money. Continue play as usual until it's heads up, and play for the remaining 9000 (as 6000,3000... so that 1st gets 10,000 and 2nd ends with 7,000). Obviously there's some round up errors on the numbers, but you get the idea.
This isn't how we chopped it, but I was hoping to get more final table and possibly heads up experience and would have loved to play it out for that.

We ended up giving 2nd to 9th 4700, and the rest to the chip leader.

Your thoughts?
Thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:50 pm 
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PSO Platinum
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Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:05 am
Posts: 346
Location: Kelowna
Take it from me......NEVER CHOP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:25 pm 
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PSO Poker God
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Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:38 pm
Posts: 4474
Location: Michigan
That tournament structure seems extremely deep. For a live tournament with 180 players to last 10+ hours is pretty extreme. It's a great structure if you like to play a lot, but most players get bored after a few hours.

If people are so scared that they want to chop in this situation, you should never agree to chop. With 10x the sb+bb+antes you have more than enough room to wait it out a bit, and even steal some chips from the overly tight players who are just looking to move up in payouts.

An even chop like that is terrible. If anything it should be a chip chop based each person's stack (# of chips / total # of chips in play), or if you want to be really fancy use an ICM (independent chip model) calculator.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:08 pm 
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PSO Silver
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:10 am
Posts: 67
Hmm... seems that chopping isn't even a good idea to begin with in that situation... okay let's say the situation is slightly different, a little quicker (which it would have gotten to soon after an orbit or so or when the blinds go up next).

With everything else being the same, say 4 players are like 6x the bb+sb+ante. I consider this almost all-in with any two when passed to you in mid position or better mode. With antes, you're losing money every hand. You can't wait an orbit if you can help it. 4 players that have 8x bb, that can afford to wait it out a bit, but really have no room to make any mistakes or afford misfortune. 1 overwhelming chip lead (about say 3x the next closest guy... so 24x bb+sb+ante).

Some were scared, most of us were just tired. I actually played an all nighter cash session before the tourny started, and had work before that, so I had been awake for 38 hours at that point.

(and yes.. to help justify my agreement to the chop, the overwhelming chip leader was seated next to act after me and that sonuvabitch is quite loose as I had dealt with the guy in earlier situations where he was on my left. At that earlier point it was easier as I was even chips with him and had a lot of room to play)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:43 pm 
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PSO Poker God
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Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:38 pm
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Location: Michigan
As long as the payout structure wasn't ridiculous top heavy, I would still play it out. You can be pretty sure that at least a few of the people are going to be scared money that will blind away to nothing. Plus with everybody being relatively short and tired, you can count on it not lasting too much longer!

That being said, with the big stack on your left, if he is being loose or extremely aggressive and you know that you won't have any chances to steal at all, then I guess taking into consideration your 38 hours of no sleep then I would for sure chop it and go to bed :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:31 pm 
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PSO Elite
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:31 pm
Posts: 860
Location: Edmonton, AB
I concur, chopping is very rarely a good choice. Ideally, I would only do it where the money means a LOT to my bankroll (such as in a WSOP tourny) or I felt I was getting a better price than what my chip position at this table is worth.

I did chop the last live tourny I played though. I knocked out the last donkey, and it was heads up against one of the few guys in the whole tourny with a clue. After I dragged the pot he offered to chop right away, chips were about even so I said sure. In retrospect I should have just played it out, even though I was tired. It wasn't a huge edge I was passing on, but the difference between first and second was only like $300 (buyin was $70).

In short, if you can afford the gamble and probably have even a small edge, just go for it.


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