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 Post subject: Donkey play in the house???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:20 am 
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How much of a Donkey play was this?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 (t13197)
MP2 (t12360)
CO (t16604)
Button (t14455)
SB (t6575)
Hero (t9605)
UTG (t11736)
UTG+1 (t13139)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Image, Image.
4 folds, CO raises to t1200, 1 fold, SB calls t1000, Hero calls t800.

Flop: (t3175) Image, Image, Image (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets t2000, SB folds, Hero calls t2000.

Turn: (t7175) Image (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t5600, Hero raises to t6380, CO calls t780.

River: (t19935) Image (2 players)

Final Pot: t19935

Results in white below:
Hero has 2c Ac (flush, ace high).
CO has Th Ad (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t19935.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:06 pm 
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wow, you CR AI on the turn with no fold equity and a flush draw and one over card. If you led into him and put him on the decision I could somewhat justify your play but this play screams donkey as you alluded to. Please don't take this line again.

Was it a freeroll? What buy in is this?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:08 pm 
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You need to fold that turn. You're not getting anywhere near the odds to call and there is nothing he can fold there. You still have 15x the BB left too so you're not in too horrible shape.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:12 pm 
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A few options I would consider:

1) Fold preflop (may be best against some players)
2) c/r AI on flop (this is a solid, aggressive stance). You have solid fold equity, you are OOP and can easily be outplayed here by calling and may not get any value if a club comes anyway.

As a c/c on flop:

3) lead turn AI (don't like this very much)
4) c/f turn to a real bet


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:26 pm 
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I like the check raise all in on the flop. I wouldn't fold here preflop pretty much ever. Pot odds pf are too good.

EDIT: I said "pretty much ever" as in sometimes I might fold player dependant. Not I would never fold... :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:43 pm 
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Veg really? I'd fold pre here probably 60% of the time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:57 pm 
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Maybe that's why I can't win lately. I just think that 3-1 on your money and the stacks are big enough.

Maybe I should quit poker for awhile and attempt to reread all the books I've already read. I might need a coach...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:06 pm 
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the odds are good but with A2 you're calling to make the wheel, the nut flush or trip twos. Any other hand would just be a big problem hand for A2. While the odds are good, I dont think they measure up to the odds against for hitting those hands.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Your probably right. Maybe I should quit playing poker for awhile.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:20 pm 
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to kinda highjack this thread maybe, what is your limping range in the sb after another limper or 2? how big of a raise do you call with a small to med pocket pair? And what is your typical calling range in the bb in the hand in the OP?

I think these 3 things might be the biggest leaks in my game. Help me dudes... help me! :oops:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:24 pm 
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Or do you think I should get poker academy and just play that for awhile?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:31 am 
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I would most likely limp A2s in the SB in a tournament given my stack wasn't in trouble. I have been folding my SB rather than completing about 70% of the time because it's such a terrible position. Calling too often from the SB, even just completing will definitely cost you more money than you'll make in the long run.

Also, avoid calling LP raises from the blinds. While there is a good chance they're on a steal, you're going to be first to act. Chances are very good that you'll completely miss the flop, and you have to risk betting into a raiser, or checking and facing an almost certain continuation bet.


To specifically answer your question, I will tend to limp hands from the SB that have good multiway potential, that are easy to throw away if they miss. I like to limp mid suited connectors or 1 gappers from the SB, as well as 22-44.

Calling raises with PPs in the blinds depends highly if we're talking about tournaments or cash games. In cash games I'll call pretty decent sized raises, but it depends on the ratio of the raise to your stack size. Since the odds of hitting a set are 8 to 1, you don't usually want to be just cold calling raises that are greater than 1/9 of your stack, since you wont be able to make enough off the hand even if you do hit your set and get all in (of course this changes if there are multiple people in the hand). In tournaments, I'm much more cautious with pocket pairs, especially the lower end. Pairs lower than 7s, in the mid stages of tournaments usually get mucked (or pushed if my stack is small enough). I pairs above 7s I'm usually raising first in. In cash I'm usually more inclined to limp 22-99 because your earnings for taking down the pot preflop are relatively small, whereas in tournaments raising 77+ and taking down the pot preflop is usually a nice addition to your stack. blah blha blah

I'm completely rambling, feel free to message me on AIM or YIM or send me an email. If you want any of my info send me a PM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:40 am 
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To answer the last part of your questions: What is my calling range in the BB in the OP:

Not much at all. I'm not really feeling a flat call out of position for 1/9 of my stack. From the looks of the stack sizes, we're about average (maybe a tad below) in chips, and while we are looking to make moves and increase our stack by at least 50% in the near future, flat calling OOP with a hand that doesn't play very well post flop to a raise is stack suicide. If the SB didn't call, I'd be tempted to raise to about 4300 with any upper marginal to good hand, as the CO made his raise first in from late position. Depending on my read of the CO, i might make that play with A2s, given the SB folded.

In this spot, I can't imagine calling with very many hands at all. I would possibly consider calling with 77-99, in which case I'd push this semi-low flop almost always. Any pair higher than 9s im most likely reraising about 3.5x (although I might be playing TT wrong in this case by doing so, I've done it in the past and people I respect tell me I should have waited for a better spot).

What I'm really trying to say is, I think this is a great example of a raise or fold scenario, and given the flat call from the SB (assuming he's not a notably 'dumb' player) I'm folding nearly all of the hands I get here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:44 pm 
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riverrun27 wrote:
wow, you CR AI on the turn with no fold equity and a flush draw and one over card. If you led into him and put him on the decision I could somewhat justify your play but this play screams donkey as you alluded to. Please don't take this line again.

Was it a freeroll? What buy in is this?


4.40 180 man MTSNG

this was the most FUGLY hand I played all nite :lol:
got lucky on the river...but I knew when I CR AI...
it was get lucky or donk all my chips


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